Steemit necessary changes

in steem •  9 months ago

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Steemit is great social network and every day it is evolving.

Last few months we have steady growth and thanks to @penguinpablo we can track current state of Steemit. We are approaching to 1 million accounts but more important number than that is how many daily active users we have.
As of today we have around 60 000 daily active users and this is almost double than few months ago.

More and more people are joining Steemit and most important thing is to involve new users easier. First week of using is crucial. If people get disappointed, they will quit using Steemit. More important thing than that is that they will trash talk about Steemit everywhere and probably they will reject many new users.

Many people come on Steemit with intention and expectation that they will earn money without real effort. When they realize that it is not possible, they quit. Probably they will trash talk Steemit but I don't care about them. There is no way anywhere to earn money without doing anything and this users are not important for network.

MY CONCERN IS ABOUT NEW QUALITY USERS WITH GREAT IDEAS THAT CAN BRING QUALITY CONTENT TO STEEMIT.

To keep them on Steemit we need to change some things and MAKE STEEMIT MORE FAIR.

If you are new user and even if you are writing great blogs and comments, it is very hard to advance on Steemit.

First of all if you don't have money to invest in tipping bots then your blog nobody will see.
Bots are not profitable if you think that you will earn more SBD with using them but with buying upvotes, your rating will increase and your blog will appear in trending column where more people will see your blog so they are necessary evil in my opinion. I am using them but I don't like that.

BOTS are FIRST thing that I would CHANGE.

If you have money, than even if you publish some bullshit, with tipping bots you can get upvotes for that and be rewarded.

This is very bad for Steemit and it is destroying quality of network.

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SECOND thing that I would CHANGE is way of UPVOTING.

Human nature is that lot of people are selfish. I am not like that but I understand selfish people.

BECAUSE OF SELFISHNESS LOT OF PEOPLE ONLY UPVOTE THEMSELVES.

They are saving upvoting power for them and they don't upvote any posts.
Because we can't change human nature, we should change way of upvoting.

I WOULD SPLIT UPVOTING POWER IN TWO SEPARATE PARTS

First part would be for self upvoting and second part would be for upvoting posts of other people that you like.

Like this, by upvoting others posts you will not take upvoting power for self upvoting. I am sure that this way we will increase number of upvotes for good posts.

I really believe in Steemit and I am enjoining using it. I am not here to earn money, and earning money on Steemit should be just follow up for using social network and bringing good things to it. I am upvoting all things that I like and I don't care that because of that upvoting power for myself is lower.

My opinion is that in life you need to give and then you will get.

I am not judging if anyone is different than me and because of different human nature we should adjust Steemit to become more FAIR.

I would like to hear more opinions how we can make Steemit better.

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Love getting more viewpoints of all the different ways of using and promoting on here. I just started using steemit regularly (joined a while ago) and still figuring out all the angles here to be most effective with voting, lending, powering up, ect.

First part would be for self upvoting and second part would be for upvoting posts of other people that you like.

That wouldn't help as many users are having multiple accounts which are upvoting each other.

'Diminishing returns' for upvoting the same accounts (own ones and others) several times would be more useful.

Apart from that one should think about changing the reward curve.

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Agreed. Self voting is not an important issue. A user with 2 accounts would end up in the same result..

There's a lot of truth in some of the comments. If there's a better way to get noticed, that is to promote your post in groups and communicate with good whales on Discord. Without the use of bots or self-upvotes, it might seem fair but people will find another way to get ahead. If you have good content, 'make the most out of it', I think is a good term. Nobody is cheating unless they hack into the blockchain.

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Where are the groups here? Also, isn't Discord another (competing) social network? This is my 4th day of being active here and I can't begin to express just how frustrating it is spending hours and hours here writing blog posts, even tweeting them to tens of thousands of people only to see zero comments, almost zero views and only a few upvotes worth $0.00. At least if they actually got views with those results, I'd know I really do need to tweak the content, but no views suggest something is up here to hide the new members' material all together. They should ban the bots, if they are the cause of such treatment to what I feel is some decent quality material - at least the last few. It's also a huge learning curve just trying to learn all the many complexities and language used in the steemit site. I love the concept of steemit, but I'm not sure how much longer I will last here under these conditions. All the best

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Ay @positivesynergy totally understand that frustration. Here is a great community group called the Steem Music Alliance. We are a very supportive and interactive group. So if you have any questions or need help we are here to help. Here is the link bud https://discord.gg/tqeK5pw

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Thanks, @chiefmappster! I appreciate the kind jester. I keep seeing people speak of using Discord, which adds more confusion here, especially given it's negative name. Is it owned by steemit also? I see enough discord here in steemit, albeit not as bad as the other social media sites, and thus the name itself keeps me away from that.

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@positivesynergy Discord is voice & text chat a. All the whales and bots are there. It is also a platform where we could find like minded people sharing views. But I felt that people are spending more time chatting away but I might be wrong I am still learning.

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Thanks, @zestforlife Sounds a bit like whatsapp, which I don't like much, or messenger. Although, messenger is integrated into FB.

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You're very welcome. It is not owned by Steemit. It is just an app that a lot of Steemians use for community building and interaction. It has some awesome features. Theses apps are what you make of them. Discord is definitely an awesome new breed of mobile apps.

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"but no views suggest something is up here to hide the new members' material all together."

I'm afraid you are just overestimating the size of the audience here for articles that don't even make it to hot. That audience is basically 0.

No point in tweeting your posts to people, because Twitter followers don't have Steem and can't vote.

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Yeah, clearly that's the case. I remember seeing someone post the latest stats that there are now nearly a million total members and about 60k active daily steemit members. Certainly, given steemit is blog based, more could be done to balance the scales for more than 0 of the 60,000 daily members to see new posted articles.

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BTW, I tried the tweeting in part because it was suggested by another high rep. Steemian.

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I've been on Steemit for only a few days also. I wrote a quick post with the tags "introduceyourself", "introduction", "introducemyself", "steemit" and I got 7 comments. I haven't spent much time writing other types of posts yet but I do know that it is hard to get noticed on the web without advertising or having a following.

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Thanks for the input, @swarmy. It's good to hear someone has had some luck from the start. That's one tag I haven't done yet and will try to get to sometime in the next few days. I know what you mean about not getting noticed online without advertising. I've been at it since the mid '90's when I got my first domain. I had it lucky then, because I published a magazine in Europe, which I put online. So I carried a fairly large niche market from the start. BTW, welcome to steemit ;-) All the best

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the introduce yourself is pretty important, but I know how you feel, I'm posting and no one is seeing. I hope eventually I have have enough good content backing up my posts it'll get me more. Have to build a tribe of people here. :)

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Thanks, @vgc5000 Yeah, there doesn't really seem to be any magic pill or something, but it seems to be something that really only persistence will overcome. I still haven't done the introduceyourself tag yet, as I'm undecided as to what to share there. I tried a bot or two and to be honest that doesn't seem like it does much for visibility. I added a little steem to power up my steem power and right away my rewards from day 1 came available. As little as it was, at least it gave a feeling of some accomplishment. On my 8th day now of plugging away with lots of posts I am starting to see a few views trickle in. There is soooo much more to learn still with so many intricate details here, but I'm getting there. All the best

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I'm with you, it's only been since December that I began and I still don't know all the little details. If you learn something interesting, let me know! maybe we can help each other. I will follow you-

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Thanks! I followed you too. I was just trying to figure out how to transfer some steem over to steem dollars, just for reference, since I powered what little I had there to steem power. Listening to one guys video just figured out I can do that on the market to trade between them.

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Yes, I saw it and looked at it but haven't tried. What I bought so far was through an exchange so it went to steem then I can turn to SP. I heard it is cheaper, I should look on Youtube--

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I haven't looked that far yet either. BTW, another thing I learned from that big fish, which seems important, that many do not do (probably because we thought upvotes come out of our steempower) is while steem power enables how influential one's upvoting gives, upvotes do NOT cost a cent and on the contrary actually earn curation points. That might be a good post to do once I can verify the validity of it all. Of course that's not to say to upvote every post and comment either. But I did think that point was fairly significant in the way steemit functions. It's just not clear enough yet to me, given I don't recall seeing any curation yet and I know from my first day I upvote those I like. Maybe I haven't seen it yet because my steem power has been so low. Time will tell...

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Actually some of good content is flushed by weak quality ones. If you have no influential friends or powered up account your content will become quickly unnoticed. Take this post as an example. It represents an example of fine photo. But it will vanish quickly unnoticed, and author discouraged will return to facebook
https://steemit.com/dog/@dogimage/last-catch-of-winter#comments

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I totally agree. Bots are adding to dilution in some cases.

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Seem like that, but just for curiocity, how it is different from FB. In total you have to invest money in both to achieve something

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Because they have unreal expectations. If they have realistic expectations they won't be disappointed: First day-0 views. Second day 1 view, 1 upvote. That's an improvement but many will turn their heads up to it. The third day, fourth day, one day at a time you build and connect, and even on facebook, you have to do that, except you are pandering to your family and friends which is a given, more like 0 views.

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I've been at it for a few months now. I have no doubt building a reputation will take at least 6 months and that's minimum. I'm patient because I see the bigger picture. I'm not sure others will .

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I agree 100%. It's not cheating unless they hack into the blockchain.

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Whales :D!

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Bots are a good way to work together in communities that promote the content you enjoy and to support your friends' content.

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Even then it's the blockchain's fault for being hackable.

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Not hackable. No one's money is stolen. It just has a pretty good api.

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"Nobody is cheating unless they hack into the blockchain."

^ THIS!!!

If I wanted steemit to be like any other platform, I would not be here, enough with the bullshit!

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@delusionalmadman, lol, met you in the comment section :). Wrote you at the start of my journey a couple months ago. I'm still here :D

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I've been busy, working on a big project.

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Hihiroyamagishi
,Nice to read about you,
em Salman Lodhi From Pakistan am also new on streemit and Welcome you to streemit,
i Have Followed you,so can also follow me,
best of Luck!

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I totally agree with this post, great post

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One thing that confused me when I was new was - Discord. People kept telling me "Join the Discord" - Discord means "disagreement between people" or "lack of harmony between notes sounding together." It sounded like people were inviting me to a place to argue. I didn't know what Discord was, and certainly didn't want to join a place to argue with people. NOw I know wat it is, but honestly it;s still confusing so many people invite me to so many things and contests and channels and I don't know who's who and they all have different rules and rooms for specific topics and it's just enough to make your head spin if you;re new on TOP of learning the Steemit platform. lol

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haha that's hilarious. Discord really does mean that...for some reason that thought never entered my mind until now. Haha I know....soo many different things. I feel like I spend all day on a rabbit trail just learning, and then I realize I haven't actually DONE anything. Been trying to figure out for weeks how an openmic contest/thingy works.

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I used the "openmic" tag because I saw other music posts with it, then got a comment that it was a contest and if I wanted to use it I needed to follow the rules etc.. But, what if I actually recorded an actual open mic at a bar? I wouldn't be able to use that tag? lol Slow and steady, it sure beats Facecrap any day lol

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@adammillwardart hmmm...thanks for sharing...guess I better check out those rules then. Lol I guess when you mention it, that is kind of weird that people can have "ownership" of a tag basically and then you're not allowed to use it b/c someone else doesn't deem it relevant

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Without that what's published could be changed at any time.
The reward system would not be able to be provably fair. We'd have to trust that one entity maintaining the records is not changing numbers behind the scenes, etc

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digital Double spend, immutable ledger...

  1. Your title is wrong, you are talking about Steem, not Steemit. Making changes on Steemit ( which is just a website) is meaningless.

  2. The Steem blockchain is open, so how would you get rid of bots? By making the blockchain operations only workable by Steemit? Steem is a diverse ecosystem. Doing so would kill the hundred of Steem Apps that exist such as Busy Drive Utopian eSteem, etc. So how would you do that?

  3. Self voting is an issue. But if we implement your method, whales who want to selfvote will just create dummy accounts

Rather than imposing rules, I believe that with some time, the community will self regulate, more and more initiatives aim to punish the abuses and reward those who deserve it. Of course it will take time and that won't be easy but that s the only way IMO.

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Thanks @stoodkev for reminding everyone that there's a difference between wishing Steem would change in some way and having a technical proposal that could actually push the network in that direction. It turns out to be extremely challenging to engineer incentives without unintended consequences. And in a free market where upvotes have value, I don't see how you could successfully regulate vote selling.

Curation rewards are somewhat of a regulator... you have more incentive to vote for good content that others will subsequently upvote than bad content. But push the pendulum too far in this direction and people will start only voting based on what others like.

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Totally agree. I think it is already generating this tendency of just liking what others like.

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I wouldn't kill bots but there should be some criteria that will stop possibility of upvoting shitty posts.

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Ok I don t disagree with the intention, but how do you plan to achieve that?
What does shitty post mean? Is that a concept that someone can code? Or every post should be reviewed manually? Then how do you verify that?

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I think that people behind bots should do self regulation. In comment here from @ebargains which help I am using is nice explain.

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I strongly agree with the self regulation comment. In fact, most bots already started to self regulate and imposed different new rules/restrictions on their voting processes, including and not limited to 3.5 days post age limit, blacklists for serial abusers/scammers, etc., limit of upvotes per user per round.

All in all, most stakeholders do realize that preserving the value of the network is the number one priority. Add features and efficiencies will come with time, but we must all make sure that the network itself is valuable and not corrupted.

Keep in mind that bots also have human operators behind them, and most of the operators are constantly on the lookout for up and coming new authors and curate/upvote/resteem content manually as well. At least I am :)

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This is exactly what all people behind bots should do. Self regulation. To make Steemit better.

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Hmm, I never thought of bots that way. Thanks for rhe insight.

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@stoodkev - agree with your points: Steemit will likely self-regulate. I would argue that it already is self-regulated. Many posts that are innately stupid or just contain a pic- might have a couple one-liner replies, i.e."cool pic man" and this type of post will rarely make it to the Trending page where the big money is made. Good comments! Upvoted & followed.

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Mob justice? Social justice?

Sounds scary :P

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Making changes on Steemit ( which is just a website) is meaningless.

Steemit needs a better UI, so, I disagree with you.

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I meant for the kind of changes he was mentionning, and that are at the blockchain level, nothing to do with UI.
For the UI, I couldn t agree more with you, as a matter of fact I created SteemPlus extension to solve these problems.

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I saw it, personally I don't like it, needs better UX. ;) See if you can "steal" the UX from steemkr. Good luck. :)

"BOTS are FIRST thing that I would CHANGE."

How? Or are you just navel gazing into a fake utopia?

"I WOULD SPLIT UPVOTING POWER IN TWO SEPARATE PARTS"

I more or less suggested this, but the problem you get is that it does nothing to stop vote trading/vote rings. They just vote each other for their "other" stake.

But, it would help reward generous voters who don't participate in such methods.

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Bots can only be changed by self regulation. In their interest is also that Steemit is successful and with better content Steemit will be better. Two separate voting is not perfect but is better then current situation. If we all together improve and act less selfish then we would have much better Steemit. I am fully upvoting every good post, some of them are yours, and I don't care if I am gonna have less voting power for me. But truth is that lot of people are not like that...

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I don't see it, why is two votes better than 1 vote? It's not, it's only another hoop that the people intent on exploiting it will inevitably go through by upvoting in between themselves like @lexiconical said. It then makes everything more complicated and gives more obscure places for people to hide in and abuse.

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Some of them will manipulate for sure but not all will do that. It is not perfect and nothing can be perfect bit I think that is at least little bit better than now.

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It's not, it's more complicated, therefore that's no benefit, then it doesn't solve what it sets out to solve or improve considerably on what it set out to improve so as to justify the change, and in doing that it creates only more crevices and nuances and therefore more possibility for abuse, which a lot of little abuses is the same as a few big ones but a lot of little ones makes abuse look much worse than compared to a few big ones.

Dwinblood made a nice gesture, which should be extended to everyone and it's a shame that it's not obvious enough: try to put yourself in the abusers' shoes so you can evaluate your proposal.

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Opinios can be different and maybe you are right and I am wrong. What is your opinion how we can improve Steemit?

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Steemit is a private company, you mean Steem. Steem is improved by little things or huge things, which usually are a lot of little things in disguise. The best one would be to have some integrity in what you believe in and how you act, which means that good intentions aren't ok if it goes against what you believe. If you believe bots are a problem then mean that with your actions. There's no end to hypocrites that complain about being forced to use bots. They are an option that is there, they aren't forced upon any in any way. They delude themselves to believe that earning upvotes should be effortless and not gruelling and getting engagement should always be positive and agreeable. Everything comes in time, ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find.

People have made many suggestions.

There is always a major problem with them. All it takes is using multiple accounts, so the people that seem unfair would be unimpacted by any such changes.

The solutions are not easy or we'd have already implemented them. :(

The problem is this is a very new thing, and the problems we need to try to fix have never actually been seen exactly in this format before because this is a totally new paradigm.

This means there likely are solutions, but they are likely to be difficult, and require some seriously out of the box thinking.

So keep thinking...

Yet to save yourself some time in the future try to play devil's advocate to your idea.

If you can figure out how to get around your idea then the unfair people will be able to as well. Multiple accounts can get them around pretty much anything you propose.

Also we shouldn't EVER do things just so we can say "We did something".

We should do it if we can't figure out how to exploit it, and we see that it doesn't negatively impact people that are not being unfair.

We must also realize that reality is not FAIR. It is impossible to make something completely fair.

We can try to get closer to fair though. :)

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I agree with you that two voting is not perfect and can be easily manipulated with multiple accounts but I am sure at some degree it will be better because not all people would do that. Beside that, if they have multiple accounts then they need to spread SP across them so their rating would be lower on some of that accounts and maybe they will be dolphins instead of whales :-)
Reality is not fair but we can at least try to make it fair as much as possible...

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Beside that, if they have multiple accounts then they need to spread SP across them so their rating would be lower on some of that accounts and maybe they will be dolphins instead of whales :-)

Doesn't work that way.

We had a whale who was #7 in power. He likes to flag stuff he doesn't like. I've seen posts go from $200 to $0 on this person's whim.

Eventually he broke into many accounts. Spread his power around.

Created some voting bots that people like to send money to so he made a fortune off of giving people up votes with other accounts people didn't know were his.

Yet it was still the same guy that was okay with "voting however he wanted" even if it crushed someone else.

He has many such accounts and several voting bots. I personally think at this point he may be the single most powerful person on the steem platform. He is very smart when it comes to these things.

In his defense he has supported some good causes too. He is human. We all have good things and bad things.

My only problem really with him was the "It's my power and I vote how I want" and the fact he couldn't make the leap to "these are my hands and I use them how I want" doesn't mean I should be choking and attacking people.

I figured it was better to just ignore stuff you don't like, and up vote what you do like.

He disagreed.

And like I said I suspect he is the most powerful person on the platform. It is simply spread across multiple accounts.

Spreading across multiple accounts does not decrease how much you can do with power. All it does is make it a little more tedious to login an vote with each of them, but most people just use a bot to do that.

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I can't say that you are wrong but at least we can try to make Steemit better. All my life I have tried to make thing better. Even here, I am nobody, with no power to change anything and maybe my suggestions are wrong, but at least I am trying the way I can to make Steemit better. If you have some suggestion, you should say them loud and maybe somebody ho have power to change things will like that.
Easiest way is to say thing are like that and we can't do nothing with that...

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Trying isn't good enough. That's why you need to polish your suggestions, maybe when they are good enough, will trying again work at making it better, but trying to make things better by offering suggestions that won't make it better, is not "at least" something you ought to be mildly proud of. It's indeed quite easy to say anything, even that things are like that and you have to accept them, it is harder to accept them and use the tool for what it is though, and a lot of times you have to know the difference between what you can change and what you cannot because trying to change some things isn't "at least I'm trying to make it better".

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Just criticism whithout any suggestion is obviously only thing that you do...

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I didn't have any suggestions, to me the problem is not yet a problem or rampant flagging.

I agree with this post, bots need to go, BUT at the same time I love them because you can use them to get exposure by getting on the trending page for the whole steemit world to see and also on the promoted page so your post keeps being seen.

All that leads to followers, upvotes, resteems, and comments which leads to more success on form. It is deceiving to some people though because they see a post and wonder how it got some many upvotes, not knowing bots were paid for the upvotes. Much like this post I see you paid some bots.

Upvotes definitely red to be changed, because you’re right people are selfish and don’t realize that when they’re selfish on steemit that it doesn’t do any good to the community, just themselves. And if we get a community that is “just for the selves” then we really don’t have a community at all.

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All that leads to followers, upvotes, resteems, and comments which leads to more success on form.

If I vote for a minnow artist because I think they're stuff is amazing, it's incredibly annoying when someone comes along with a few dollars to push them aside and cut in line. These people just end up quitting... and I tried my best to help. It's so selfish buying those votes and pushing people out of the way, I don't see how anyone can call it "success".

If I give someone a trophy, they EARNED it. If someone buys a trophy, then acts like they're "successful", where I come from we call that a fraud.

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If more people with high rating are like you, Steemit would be better. But most of them are not like you...

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If people quit because others promote themselves or others promote them then they are quitters and would have given up at the next adversity, but I am the Bah so throw some caution to the wind. It makes no difference to me though because it's always been promoted work, so they feel that it's worth that much, being mad about that isn't a helpful reaction because ultimately this is an issue of supply and demand and not a question of personal integrity or morality.

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It's a shot to morale, which in turns kills work ethic. The same thing happens on the job if someone shows up, acts shiny on the surface, kisses ass, then gets the job promotion before others. Before you know it, the workplace is full of brown nosers and productivity slips because the actual workers were kicked to the curb and left for greener pastures. Quitting doesn't mean they give up life, it means they're looking for something better.

There's genuine promotion and then there's folks just looking for shortcuts. Those ones taking shortcuts are causing many others to stress. Those taking the shortcuts are contributing to centralization of power. All of that money is going to a handful of bot owners. There won't be much supply and those bots will be in high demand. I don't see why centralization of power makes people feel so good, but whatever, it's not me paying to screw the place so I'm not to blame.

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Quitting from a social media/public forums because people promote themselves through large stakeholders based on a overwhelming demand for those promotional services is still a very poor reason to quit. In the real world centralization of power happens by the hand of those bosses. Here centralization of power is insignificant to people that are like me, who will speak and upvote regardless of how many flags or how much resistance there is because to me centralization of power in that respect doesn't affect me in the way that actual centralization of power would. I hoe that those that left did so because they considered the alternatives (none) and decided that they are better, but that's not likely, they probably went back to the mindless facebook newsfeed.

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Hmm interesting. I hadn't thought of it like pushing minnows out of the way, I thought of it a bit like Facebook ads.

also calling people selfish for self-upvoting is absurd. it's like if someone was handing out free money and i went to take it and as i was walking away you told me i was selfish for not letting someone else have it

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They are not selfish because of self upvoting, they are selfish if they do ONLY self upvoting...

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fair enough

Tokens like Steem acquire their power and new value from increasing network externalities. Unfortunately, the steep learning curve to the site and difficulty for new contributors to break into the system makes it impractical for a lot of new users from participating much at all. Steemit should be relentlessly focused on growing new users and nothing else, best achieved by:

-partnerships with existing social media sites;
-outreach to new users that focuses on the ability to basically get paid to do what they already do for free on reddit, Facebook, and their own blogs.

The potential is there but Steemit seems focused on protecting its existing power-users instead of trying to find one. I just joined and would never have heard of this place if not for my overzealous deep reading of every relevant cryptocurrecy subreddit. There is a lot of user engagement on this site for experienced users but the tutorials and FAQs are weak, new users like me are flailing in the dark, and there is no marketing investment from Steemit whatsoever as far as I can see.

Working on getting listed on new exchanges is of no value if nobody wants to buy the token. The token achieves its value and power not from its concentration in the hands of a small number of power-users, but by expanding the userbase to the point that you have lots of people who have a genuine use for the token. My two cents.

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I see that this is your first post. Welcome and good luck on Steemit. I like your comment and agree with most of it :-)

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Tokens like Steem acquire their power and new value from increasing network externalities. Unfortunately, the steep learning curve to the site and difficulty for new contributors to break into the system makes it impractical for a lot of new users from participating much at all. Steemit should be relentlessly focused on growing new users and nothing else, best achieved by:

Tokens like anything of value is acquired by belief, and power is no different.

Steemit is a company that holds the hosting for the front end of the system, and when I say the front end I mean that they host noting else, you can create your own front end, youc an even right now FORK this, like GOLOS and make your own steemit that is focused SOLELY on growing new users through whatever whorish means available: such as contracting with the devil.

Steemit isn't about "basically get paid", the idea is economic freedom, read the whitepaper.

I am still waiting on a detractor of steem to fork it and I have challenged numerous people to do just that.

In other words, you might as well save your criticism and get hard at work because none of that is constructive if you understand the ethos behind steem, you're basically explaining how we can rape, murder and kill on the market when we aren't even remotely interested in inflating and blowing up steem as some kind of slut, what good is it gaining the whole world if you lose your spirit in the process? The spirit of steem and steemit has not been Hype, has not been Partnerships with the Devil, has not been masive onboarding, because all those things come from people that are simply and solely interested in profits, numbers and those are at odds with the values of quality. People will come, nobody is going to jump on the first wave, or the second or the 5th but eventually those that happen upon it will accrue, and this is a mathematical fact that as long as there is no better place than steem, more quality AND much more quantity of quality, steem will remain supreme, and I credit it mostly to the values and ethos and WHY behind steem.

as a newbie to this system (less than 4 month) I am facing what you said personally! I dedicate some of my upvoting power daily to NEW posts which I find interesting, but they make little money in the end so I don't get much Curation reward.
I try to write quality content, but no one ENGAGES and SEES them.

I even had post which a whale liked (as he commented) and confirmed it was useful for him, but didn't upvoted! :)

I had a post similar to yours, I described Steem has a great business Idea, but not a great business model. it's not sustainable.

sustainable business model needs:

  1. value for new comers who are persistence in presence (they are like middle class to a society comparing to whales as the rich)
  2. a way of making money for the system rather than speculating on crypto's value

I believe steemit can use parts of ORTHODOX business models like adwords and adsense to make these goals, combining them with the current model

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no, we cannot, because we are decentralized and there is no consensus of introducing anything remotiely compromising to that, and as many are completely against whoring ourselves out or our abusing our attention by the very things that 90% will turn off one way or another, only so that people have it EASIER.

Steem is not a business.

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Got your point and i do agree with part of it. But i cant stop thinking about the sustainability of the system.

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Because sustainable growth is sustainable right? Or because insane growth is sustainable? I would beat people over the head with their favourite word like this for paragraphs.

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I respect your opinion, and i have mine: sustainability matters and it will be possible with reasonable growth and benefit for hard working middle class

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The only thing that matters is WHY you believe that.

I think your way of thinking is right, all those who today are in high position little or nothing stop to look at those who are starting. That is not fair, at the time they also needed help ... and it would be reciprocal to give to receive. I liked your post.

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What if nobody helped them and they are bitter because of that, do you think they should help you still?

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I think that if they are in high category, it is because many helped them. Apart from posting, comment, vote and follow do not know another way to climb category. I only agree with the post of cicbar. and if you know another way to climb the category, let me know, so that I can win. and good if they are bitter, I do not see the reason, because if nobody helped them, how did they get on? and for me this page apart from benefits that I know and I do not know is a way to drain feelings, skills, pleasant moments and because not also penalties that we passed. It is my humble opinion.

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What if they didn't? What if they didn't get helped and did it all by themselves?

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If they did not receive help and that is why they are bitter, then they look for professional help to solve their problem. I am not a cause of your problems.
And if you do everything alone, then give me the techniques, and problem solved, nobody forces another to help. The one who does it is because he is generous and I value that.
And to end this discussion against me, give me or give me ways to win votes without depending on others. That way you do not bother.
Tranquility and calmness is my recommendation for you .. Hugs.

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If they Don't NEED to look for professional help, what then?

Why should anyone make it easier FOR you in getting votes in other words, especially if they had Valued the act of Discovering it for yourself? ALL by yourself, as THEY have done.

I understand what you say 100%. We should educate newbies on the arts of networking and sharing!

Now let me add an improvement to your idea: Make the Self-voting Power (SVP) usable for others as well, while keeping Collaborative-voting Power (CVP) usable for such purpose only.

The risk of creating multiple accounts is not big. Because people will have to spread SP among all their accounts, and coordinating such operation is complicated.

Regarding SPAMMERS and abusers, we should improve bandwidth control a lot more! But that is part of a another discussion...

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I like your idea :-) with more sharing Steemit would be better.

Don't you see the irony of your post? You paid for votes in order for your call to fairness be heard.

I am new here. A noob. I have read as much as I could about steemit and I have to say that this system is rigged. It's not what you do, it's about who you know. Same shit as in the real life.

The thing that goes on my nerves is how everybody is pretending and lying about what steemit is and how it works. Those who invested real money are getting return on it because the small fishes are believing they can make some of it too.

Tens of thousands of small fishes are polishing the turd while the big players are buying votes and upvoting themselves to riches. Welcome to the AnCap decentralized blockchain future. Give me a break!

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I'm a new user also. You are spot on about bigger wallets getting more returns but in fairness they should, they have hard earned money at risk here. It's no different than anything else in life the more you have at risk should mean greater rewards. From what I've seen so far it looks like the community will grow and develop and as it does so should your steem power. Be patient and let it organically develop. Get friends involved and help each other out. The more you put in the more you get out, that's life.

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Let me indulge in a bit of vanity and quote myself :)

I'm not hating on anyone who is leasing their steem power. I'm just ranting a bit for I've found that the article does not live up to its advertising :)

The advertising says:

Your voice is worth something
Get paid for good content. Post and upvote articles on Steemit to get your share of the daily rewards pool.

What I've found almost immediately is that all the beginner's guides talk a lot about good content, but as I dug deeper I've found that the way to earn $$$ here is to invest money in buying steem, powering up and then leasing that power to the bot owners. Writing good content is not the way to do it.

I have been waiting ten days or so to get the account approved and in my mind I've built up steemit to be something more than it is. Now, I feel cheated :)

The site is very basic, finding interesting topics and people is hard, you can't send a direct message to anyone,... as a social platform steemit kinda sucks. Usability is low and there are a ton of missing functionality that would make it a modern social network.

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You can send a PM buy transferring a small amount of steem, and attaching a msg to the transaction.

Your right tho the site is very basic and it needs a better search function.

I would also like to see some ads or another way to earn steem.

I often post my steemit posts on reddit or facebook and can generate alot of extra views.. but i don't earn any extra for doing so it seems.

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So you aren't here to participate and interact with people like the rest of us, you're here simply to make money, why the heck do you care if a social media platform comes attached to that is my question at this point?

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So you aren't here to participate and interact with people like the rest of us, you're here simply to make money

Now, be honest and answer this: Who would join steemit.com if there was no monetary reward for doing so? What else does this platform offers that others don't? Why did you join in the first place? Did you somehow saw a group of people having an interesting discussion here and decided to jump in, or you did it for the reasons the rest of us did - to get something out of it?

Remove the monetary reward and see how long this platform will live. I give it a week.

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WITHOUT A DOUBT bro, I value what steem offers, as opposed to all other competitors :

CENSORSHIP PROOF, TRANSPARENT LEDGER.

You could have made me PAY for it for all I care!
O yup, I expect you explain WHY are you still WRITING when you could be making bank of BOTS HERE?!, stop wasting your breath, stop SPAMMING the ledger with your useless, meaningless however comical ironic irony and start living the reality of Steemit, no?

Now be honest, why are you still here?

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I agree with you and this is why we need changes to make Steemit better.

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I don't see what can be done to make it fair. I don't think that your proposed solution will work. It will boost voting on others content a bit, but it won't solve the core problem. From what I see, the accounts with a lot of SP are not doing anything, they are not posting, they are not commenting,... they are leasing that power to the bot owners and collecting money.

The whole thing depends on the new users getting engaged and profiting enough to stay and invest their time in it. No new (and active) users and the whole thing goes down.

It's in the interest of the big players to prop up the small fish, but who will do it? Not me, not me, not me,... A classic example of the tragedy of the commons. Everyone is going down, but there are no incentives for a single individual to do anything about it. Lease your STEEM POWER to the bots and collect the money while it lasts.

Perhaps, the whales should put together a Welcome aboard! bot that will upvote the efforts of the new users. I don't know.

I was very enthusiastic about it, but the more I read and the more I see the less I like it.

Also, I'm not hating on those with a ton of SP. They are doing what they think is in their best interest. I don't hate the players I hate the game. I've been mistaken about what the game is when I decided to join in. I thought it was something better, but it is not.

Sorry for ranting on your blog

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No reason for sorry, I really like to hear other opinions and I agree with you at many things.

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Good points, however I myself have never leased my steem power to anyone, nor do I ever plan to do so.

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Why not? As I understand it is a good way to make money.

I'm not hating on anyone who is leasing their steem power. I'm just ranting a bit for I've found that the article does not live up to its advertising :)

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"Why not? As I understand it is a good way to make money."

If money was my bottom line, I would be much more richer than I already am in "money"

Perhaps someday in the future I will make a blog post on steemit about why money is not my bottom line.

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And when you write it I'll make sure to read it.

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I think if steemit had an advertisment, and users got paid on a per click basis it might help generate more revenue for new users.

They could also spread their posts around on social media, generate more traffic to their posts and promote steemit at the same time.

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What did you expect exactly?

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Damn straight my dude. But with time I should be able to get up there without cheating! Hopefully!~

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Maybe it's because I'm new here and don't understand how the system works, but self-upvoting does sound like cheating! Joined to share content that I believe is relevant to shape better future for us all. Now not so sure I'm in the right place. Thank you for sharing your concerns, @rfburton

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I do hope that I am wrong.

Perhaps you will be one of those lucky people discovered by the whales and your message will be heard :)

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@rfburton, you are fucking right my bro! It's about who you know and how much money you have to invest. But I don't necessarily see any bad in this. You can go to discord and get to talk to whales, you can just put more money. Some people will not survive. But just like in real life. People are dying and go bankrupt. That's just how it is. (wanted to quit steemit like 5 times, but carried on)

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I have no problem with how things are, they are what they are. My problem is all the lies about it.

Write good content and you will be rewarded... NOT! Shakespeare can rise from the dead and publish his work here and still get nothing for it. So why all the lies?

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What lies? The fact that people make bank, verifiably al the time from good work, does that guarantee that "everyone will make bank from their good work?" No.

You've lied to yourself, because you have nothing to look forward since others are making money another way than creating content, which because some people aren't getting rewarded what you believe they should, the promise that good content does and will get rewarded is evident day after day, by new people all the time.

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And I will spread that message as opposed to being stuck in this obscure corner that nobody listens, after the whalecock has touched me. Nobody is discovering anyone bro, they aren't a publishing house, they are regular people that got some stake, they have no special powers, and their cock might be mighty but they still have only 24 hours in a day.

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Having $20+ regular upvotes on any shit you write the minute you write it and because of it automatically getting on the trending page for the subject you write about is what I'm talking about when I say discovered, but you already knew that.

Sure, they are regular people, Buffet and Gates are regular people, too.

It looks like you are the only one here happy with how things are, the only thing that makes you angry are my rants. I'm guessing you are one the major stakeholders here and baah is just one of your accounts.

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I might be because I can appreciate what Steem IS and not what steem should be for all the people that want it EASIER to make bank. facebook.com/bah.fucyou

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Why are you still here then? The realy irony has only begun.

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To annoy you, perhaps?

Why are you so upset about what I wrote? Is it because people are upvoting it and agreeing with me?

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Why are you assuming things about me?

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To annoy you, perhaps?

How has that been going for you?

FIX THESE THINGS FIRST:

a) We need good content on trending page, and no 2 liners or only specific content related or of specific members only or just a dinner shot.

b) Bots should review the posts before upvoting.

c) Need genuine Meritocracy, not fake (Give Fair chance to everyone, not just the rich)

d) Meetups/Programmer related should be funded privately, and not by trending, This is not called good content. Need a speprate page for it like an UPDATE or ANNOUNCEMENT page.

e) Or You can remove Trending and Hot page, so people will only look for content they are intrested in, using search bar or tags, & not upvote only for rewards.

f) We also need Reward limits and Posts limit. I guess if we keep max 200$ per post and max 5 posts, that comes to 1000$ per day means 30000$ per month. Which is morethan enough for any one to live life in any part of the world. and obviously you can invest in steem/SBD or other cryptos. This will also limit greed.

g) Also a minimum reward like 50 cents to 1$ (more or less i leave to experts) for every post with a minimum content (bots can handle this im sure) will give a boost to minnows, and will also lead to genuine wealth distribution.

All the above points will eliminate the "Central Banking System for the Rich only" type scenario that going on on steemit.

Untitleda-2.jpg

Reposting here as it gets ignored all the time..

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Been using Steemit for a couple of months now. Still do not completely understand it's inner workings but I would have to whole heartily agree with you about the virtual "Central Banking System" that is being created here is the very thing we all are trying to escape from the real world.

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Some good ideas, having a limit on earnings will hurt the system tho.

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it wont, its called proper wealth distribution..

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a) you cannot force that. obvs.
e) then you may never find abuse simply because someone could be hiding in the most obscure tag, nor would you find anything that wasn't in a regular tag. The next problem will be tag spam. The next one would be tag whoring, tag raping, tag spoofing, and whatever it takes to subvert attention and promote oneself by those means, which complicates things a little more.

b)can't code that

c)can't code that either

d) That's right, it's not good content, It's great content. and it's tagged appropriately.

f) reward limits don't encourage much more than alts voting on comments and other schemes which would be harder to detect that would bypass the limits.

g) you might as well give them money instead of promoting spam of a certain length. weren't you grandstanding that promoting from the reward pool is not ok? MUH for economic freedom bro?

There is no central banking system of the rich. If you want to eliminate it go ahead and fork the project, it's open source and you can even keep all the posts, transactions and accounts, people would simply log in! You could start implementing all this new fairness! Fuck me I've literally challange numerous detractors to go and do this, guess what happens every single time someone has the time to list numerous proposed solutions without considering them? Noooooooooooothing.

The bot issue i do disagree with you a little. Some bots do have a purpose.
@crpytoempire is a crypto bid bot game.
jerrybanfield bid bot funds many steemit projects.
and I am sure they are more

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I am not against bots. I would like that there is some kind of review that would stop promoting bad posts...

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That is being worked on with blacklists but still the system is too inefficient :(
Idk if their is a better way some thought of yet.

Let's make Steemit great again!

Some great points made in this.

I upvote anything that I like and also peoples comments on my blog as much as possible.

I try to keep my voting power above 60% so when I do upvote it is at least worth $01.

Getting noticed on Steemit is the same as getting noticed on Youtube/Instagram etc.

Be consistent and provide decent quality article/insights.

Also learn to be patient, too many people quit without really trying and by that I don't mean 3 months.

Just enjoy the process and learn as much as possible and the $ will follow.

Good luck everyone :-)

Splitting the upvoting is a great idea and would really help Steemit grow!!

Improvent that Im mostly looking after on steem right now is private messages between users.
Lack of this forces me to leave the platform when I need to talk to someone from here and I have to ask publicly for someone details for contact. And either mine or theirs data is being revealed while doing so.

This is a major flaw.
Also some sort of notification, when somebody answered me would be useful.
Those things look tiny at first, but once introduced they prove to be very convenient and major improvements.

I know this from experience from other websites, so its not just a theory.

1520864732366s.jpg

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I would like also private messages between users and user based search.

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Totally agree with you @laserade, private messages will be awesome to have on Steemit.
About notifications, I tried playing with the app Steemify once, it didn't really do anything in terms of notifications or maybe I'm just missing something.

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I fully agree! I've had to track people down in all kinds of ways because I didn't want to give out private information publicly!

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private messages are absolutely needed.

@cicbar - agree with a lot of your comments, especially the bots. Although they probably are a necessary evil; where if you want a post to really trend, one will have to buy some bots to help in voting.

Maybe there should be some sliding scale on how much bots cost: i.e. for a minnow, you pay X amount, but for a whale- they would pay X+ whatever additional amount based on their tier level. I am certainly not a socialist, but the votes and Steem Power a whale brings, would dwarf whatever a newbie could bring to the table. Allowing the whales to delegate their voting power & still get a nice chunk of income.

As a newbie, my vote on counts for a few cents the first vote or two ... then it trails off quickly as I upvote more folks' posts. I try to reward good content and informative posts. Upvoted!!

Voting_Power_Gone.jpg

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If you think it was bad now with a linear reward curve for SP holders, you should have seen it when it was exponential, n^2.

Completely agreed with ya, steem is has so much potential but the developers need to push hard to fix it. Solve the hard problems!

NO!
After you've been here a year or so you might have enough experience.
but right now you're just whining.

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No mate, I am not whining. I have enough money and with current system I can make more on Steemit. I am just thinking how we can make Steemit better and more useful for everybody :-)

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even so...you're wrong.
the question is NOT" is steemit too hard"
rather the question is "is steemit too easy.
Who do we want on Steemit?
Special snowflakes
or people who will work for what they get?

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Special snow flakes. Salty snow flakes are my favorite.

Oh wait.. no we want workers.

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stop making sense.

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Especially people like me who is new in the system

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I hate to agree with the old man racist over here, but he's right.

I agree with your points on bots and upvoting, despite the fact that I have used bots and do self upvote. I agree these are negative aspects of the platform. Additionally,having the vast majority of upvoting power in the hands of so few causes major issues, even if these individuals don’t self upvote. They basically decide what is good and gets rewarded and what is not and disappears unseen. A better distribution of power is needed, but I accept this is very difficult to achieve!

Each One Teach One.

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I wrote in post that I am using bots because you need to do this if you want that your post is in trending column but I don't like that. I would like that I don't need to use them.

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Yes we understand the need to force your way into the trending. You would like to be in trending without bots, but you cannot so you need bots.

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Right, because other columns nobody look.

I don’t remember where I did read it, but the also have a use considering the SBD. Until recently most bots could onlu be paid with SBD. This increase the buy reasons for SBD. Which will increase the price from which we all benefit.
The early days on Steemit I do call the dark days. It is hard to get noticed. It does not matter how good your post are, there will be a luck factor involved.
Lets be honest most of us were allured by the money part! But we do know that hard work is needed to achieve this.
But you are right that it is important that the newcomers feels welcome and do understand how things work here. It is also good that the number is dor the second day in a row above 10k. These people will hopefully write about new topics and tags so that new communities will be created. Which will allure more people to Steemit!
I di understand that some things could be changed, but to be honest I don’t know what and how!

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@cicbar
Sorry for all the typos. Was standing in a huge traffic jam, when writing the previous comment.
Also want to add another opinion. I was thinking about the two separate voting options, but I do think that this will not solve the problem. There are several reasons for this.

  1. Steemians will be clever enough to find a solution to this problem by finding a new way to exploit it. It will not eliminate selfishness. People will just create voting groups. Where everybody is obliged to up-vote each other posts with 100%. Meaning that there will be no voting power left, to upvote posts which really deserves it, outside this ring.
  2. It will increase the usage of voting bots. Besides giving your post some more exposure, it is a hidden way of self voting.

I don't consider myself selfish but I did upvote some of my own posts, luckily never a comment :).
In stead of doing this I'm now trying out voting bots, trying to give my posts some exposure. But I don't want to to this. But I feel that I have no choice cause a lots of us are doing this.
So after some thoughts, only popped up this morning in the traffic jam, I decided that from now on I will use the upvote bots only after the post is 12 hours old.
Why do you ask? There is a good reason for this but is a 2 side cutting knife.
I first want to have genuine upvotes and comments on my posts. So if I instantly use upvote bots, almost all the curation will go to these bots in stead of towards the people who really found my article worth an upvote.
But the problem is, that if a post is already has some value, other will be more interested by the post. Trying to get some curation or are thinking: hey some people found it worth to upvote, so it could be a great post.
This is the dilemma I'm facing at the moment.
(This time without typos, I hope)

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Maybe two separate upvoting options are not perfect but they are much better than current situation. Even if usage of bots grow it still will not be significant. At today's post of @penguinpablo https://steemit.com/steemit/@penguinpablo/how-many-of-the-upvotes-are-done-by-paid-voting-botspayed upvotes are less then 2%

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I did read the post and was surprised how low the impact was!

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grate commant.

I agree with the points you have pointed out. It is harder for newbies to get noticed. But i support bid bots but want them to be more selective about contents they upvote.

I support your idea of 2 separate voting power but it should have a twist. First voting power which will replenish like what we currently have, but self-voting power will replenish in relation to upvote you give to others.

UPVOTED | RESTEEMED \ FOLLOWED | THANK YOU
bitsham.jpg

Well if you are not on Steemit to make money, people like me are here to make money and also read and post good content.
Making it fair is a good idea, especially those who kept upVoting themselves. Great post though.

Very nice post @cicbar, May I reblog

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Of course. Thanks😁

The problem is nothing would really be solved by any attempt to differentiate self-voting. If any restrictions were put in place, everybody with a significant stake would immediately spawn an alt account, delegate all their power and return to their old ways. I am pretty sure this hasn't been done because limit self-votes is simple to work around. At least now the self-voting is obvious and not obfuscated.

Congratulations @cicbar, this post is the most rewarded post (based on pending payouts) in the last 12 hours written by a Hero account holder (accounts that hold between 10 and 100 Mega Vests). The total number of posts by Hero account holders during this period was 439 and the total pending payments to posts in this category was $5470.22. To see the full list of highest paid posts across all accounts categories, click here.

If you do not wish to receive these messages in future, please reply stop to this comment.

Good points. Though I've used bots in the past it is an annoying part of Steemit. As for upvotes, I don't think there are many who only upvote themselves are there? If I had a lot invested in Steem, I could see the draw as you could make back your investment quickly.

Completely agree. Steemit should encourage and promote new users for quality posts.

I agreed with you & i really appreciated you think about other steemit members in the circle.I like you blog

You are totally right. This is something I noticed very quickly when I joined Steemit. But up to this week no one seemed to notice it or post anything about it.

But the statistics already show for a long time that hundred thousands of people joined Steem in the past year. And almost all of them are inactive. I can't calculate the exact number as I don't know how many users there were last year?

I think tipping bots are overrated. Nowadays over 1,000 Steemonians use them daily. So what does it help? Nothing cause I won't notice you between those 1,000+. And I fully ignore trending and hot.

As newbie I really don't understand that it is possible to upvote yourself. My suggestion would be to fully skip that possibility.

Last but not least, I think there are many more changes needed. Like getting rid off all kind of scams and frauds, stopping the greatest flagging war in history, bandwidth issues for new users and more like that.

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Self upvoting is good and necessary because if you have invested money in Steemit and you have locked your Steem then you should be rewarded for that.

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This might actually be the best explanation I have heard so far.

I still wonder if it's fair. Cause if you didn't invest, but started 1 year ago, then you probably have some SP now. As the rewards back then were about 30-40 times as high as now. People who have this can now really post crap, upvote their own crap and get rewarded for it. And the majority of new users could never get closer to the amount of rewards those crappy self upvoters receive (Sorry for my language, but I couldn't figure out a decent way to explain what I mean).

Your solution seems to be fair. Cause I agree that investors should get some return.

I guess we're still nowhere with me agreeing with you. As this probably won't get implemented ever.....

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You are, you get to vote with more weight on witnesses, and then there are curation rewards, which ought to amount to more than 6% which is considered ok for investors. I don't think it's necessary.