The Limits of Crypto-Economic Governance (Response to Vitalik's Critique of DPOS)

in eos •  4 months ago

Vitalik recently made claims that Delegated Proof of Stake (DPOS) results in rule by plutocracy (government by the wealthy). He then goes on to argue for governance by cryptoeconomics, the use of economic incentives and cryptography to govern.

https://medium.com/@bytemaster/the-limits-of-crypto-economic-governance-9362b8d1d5aa

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Most points are very weak. But this is overall what he's pushing through the Eth maximist community:

  1. Votes being aligned with Stake size: "The flaw in all of this, of course, is that the average voter has only a very small chance of impacting which delegates get selected"

  2. Bribes for Votes: "The delegate slot gives a reward of $100 per period, and candidates promise to share some portion of that as a bribe, equally split among all of their voters." "Now, some candidates will want to secure their position by sharing more; by sharing 2%, you are likely to get twice as many votes as those that share 1%"

  3. Cartels and DPOS in Bitshares: "But it gets worse. At this point, there’s an incentive for delegates to form alliances (aka political parties, aka cartels)" "pooling votes"

  4. No conversations between US EOS community and EOS China: "Since the EOS.IO official Twitter account was founded, there has never been any interaction with the mainland Chinese EOS community" * Block.One has offices in HK. Not sure about contact with mainland.

  5. Identity Issues: "If they get removed from the delegate position via a hard fork, they can simply restart the attack again with a different identity." * Identity verification mechanisms and @account fingerprint solves this

  6. Cryptonomics (economic incentives) VS. EOS Governance "Cryptoeconomics is about trying to reduce social trust assumptions"

  7. Then he rants about Casper lol
    https://www.reddit.com/r/eos/comments/888zk5/list_of_vitaliks_issue_with_dpos_governance_lets/

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👍🏼

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I honestly believe the transparency in the crypto-world and blockchain is what makes it stand out above all other financial or economic systems.

I believe EOS-IO is promising future for us all.

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Lets hope the devs dont abandon eos like they did steem.

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希望不要被少数人控制了

The community I want to participate in will expel the rent-seeking vote-buyers and reward those who use their elected broadcasting power for the benefit of all community members rather than special interest groups (such as vote-buyers). I have faith that such a community will be far more competitive in a market competition for mindshare than one that elects vote buyers.

This really goes to the essence of the world we live in, both physical and digital. We are seeing digital domains, ones that are run by greed, scarcity, and feat mirroring the physical. We need to transition away from this or else we risk simply creating new slave holders.

Cryptocurrency and blockchain offers the ability to change the course that humanity was on the last 100+ years (actually longer than that but I will stick to the banksters).

The challenge is not in the technology but in the changing of people. If we behave like we always did, nothing changes. The development of the gun over the bow/arrow simply allowed us to kill in greater numbers. The fact that humans were on track to keep killing did not change at all.

If blockchain is nothing more than a digital version of the US Congress, then we accomplished nothing.

Keep up the good work @dan.

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The questions comes how society will change when we are moving to 10 billion humans. Can you control that or will it become madness that is a good questions. How can you convert people into good selfless people.

The problem with big groups of people is usually stupidity can spread like wildfire. Since intelligent ideas are more complex. So you sort of need to spoon feed the mainstream masses great ideas. And you also have so much capital now in the world that runs the show so will be interesting how the future will look like.

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All that you say is spot on. There are going to be questions going forward. How do people adapt and adjust? Many resist change....there will be some who do not get it. Plus, this is a process that is not going to happen in a year or two. We are going to see this evolve over decades.

One thing about the masses, once the trend starts in a particular direction, they are easily led. This is what the present system did..lead them around by the nose. However, if there is a strong group of people who start the trend in the opposite direction, most will follow suit.

There will always be those who exhibit bad behavior while refusing to conform. However, most will fit in with the norm of society.

We see this in riots...group mentality ....people do things in that situation they would never do on their own.

Have the prevailing mindset of doing good for others, and the masses should follow.

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...and in the end we come to facts like...thinking with your own head and not listening to the crowd, do your own research.

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Human nature is to exploit.

Hi @dan.

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RIP Ethereum, let's all have a silent moment together!^^

Reko_3

"Hi, I'm Dan. EOS is coming. It's over for Steemit. k thanks bye now"

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Not until I'm here it's not. >:D

Good rebuttal @dan to Vitalik concerns....Look for the EOS wallet launch!

Hey Dan,

I've been buying EOS as I have some extra money.   I am looking forward to its potential.    I've personally invested more in it than any other crypto outside of steem.

I also saw you mention that you were going to make a steemit like competitor based upon it and that you've found ways to address issues with steemit.

I would like to be able to get in an use such a project as early as possible. If you have anything I need to do in order to insure that please let me know.

I've been signed up to the eos.io newsletter for some time. My email is dwinblood at gmail.

Keep up the good work, I believe in the directions you are heading and you have my support. Meager, but it is still there.

Some people thinks he wanted to FUD. I think his goal was not to FUD but to inform. With the popularity of dPOS blockchains it's important to know all the downsides. It's easy to think that it's the Holy Grail because of the high Transaction Per Seconds and fast confirmations but very few people know all the technicalities to understand the traps of such a consensus mechanism. I believe Vitalik is one of the most brilliant people (and humble!) in the crypto space so I value his input and I think he should not be taken lightly. Just my opinion.

"The vast majority of people have good intentions" - I would hope you're right about this @dan!

Yes, the argument is valid...

Wonderful post ..thanks for sharing...Best of luck friend ✫ resteemid

I don't think it's possible to stop cryptocurrencies, they are already too powerful.Everyone knows bitcoin but new currencies like ripple and ethereum are gaining more and more popularity as well, countries who thinks about banning cryptocurrencies will suffer from this action, in simple words cryptocurrencies is our future:) Thanks for the article:)

@Dan you are going to be rivals just like Apple and Microsoft were in the early days of PC. You and Vitalik having different approaches with the same goals in mind. Change the world through decentralization. I love you both :-)

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Ethereum can't even get off the ground and running. I think competition for EOS will come elswhere.

“What matters is that blockchains and cryptocurrency, originally founded in a vision of using technology to escape from the failures of human politics, have essentially all but replicated it. Crypto is a reflection of the world at large”

Vitalic is a guy who made something really big and changed the world of cryptocurrency when He created Ethereum,,, So I believe if He says something,, He really would be sure of it and after research. So this guy is saying only the truth He knows.

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Vitalic teh guru?;)

Whatever Vitalik says, there's a reason EOS is keeping it's value steady, while Ethereum sinks. There's no reasonable explanation why anybody would like to allow burning tons of coal (energy) just to secure transactions in the modern world.

Thanks for giving us a lot of information about bitcoin,crypto,cryptocurrency.I always visit your site and wait for next post.
thanks

The community I want to participate in will expel the rent-seeking vote-buyers and reward those who use their elected broadcasting power for the benefit of all community members rather than special interest groups (such as vote-buyers). I have faith that such a community will be far more competitive in a market competition for mindshare than one that elects vote buyers.

Message Clearly Passed

The more effective a group is at maintaining its integrity as it grows, the larger the group will grow. The more corrupt a group is the faster it will die.

I could hardly understand much being said in that post. But this fact from personal experience is totally true! A corrupt community will surely go down the drain in little or no time. The transparency in the crypto-world and blockchain makes it stand out above every other financial or economical system.

The more effective a group is at maintaining its integrity as it grows, the larger the group will grow. The more corrupt a group is the faster it will die.

I could hardly understand much being said in that post. But this fact from personal experience is totally true! A corrupt community will surely go down the drain in little or no time. The transparency in the crypto-world and blockchain makes it stand out above every other financial or economical system.

Very true @dan...u did well by sharing...You are a pace setter. I am privileged to witness history in the making...
#winks

The blockchain is the future even to create new forms of governance, could be for good or could be for bad is our responsive that all this evolution ocured for good

Ok this is interesting

Dear @dan could you comment of plan for whales for saving whales? Your opinion as one of founder Steemit is very important. Thank you for feedback.
https://steemit.com/introduseyourself/@uberwhales/we-can-be-more-than-just-steemian-s
https://steemit.com/steemit/@uberwhales/whales-for-saving-whales-feedback

Crazy how rumors out of one country can have such a huge effect on market trends. Its also funny how after the finance minister made these remarks, several thousand people signed a petition calling for his resignation. They were stating that because of his rumors, the market was negatively affected. Hilarious. Anyways, Korea is a democracy, there is no ban coming, just want some rules put in place and also to limit the amount of people trying to take money out of the country because of the large arbitrage opportunities

Very well said : Goodness is subjective and it is up to each community to define what values they hold. Fundamentally its true for the entire humanity, be it crypt or not. So people must realize that.

Sir Dan, this is amazing. I believe all this hard work will turn out to a very big success

bad that everywhere there is corruption, although buying a vote goes against moral ethics ..

Cool, following you. Whats your current favorite coin/token?

Hey @dan you deserve an https://eos.pizza slice!

This illustration is so perfect

The challenge we all face is determining which radio stations we care about, who gets to broadcast, and when do they get to broadcast.

..keep pressing on @dan , we appreciate the good work

Life is a dream, hence we only ever need to go wiithin in order to create our dream reality.

I still believe that you should post here too and not just leave links. I know that it looks like censorship when some big whale downvotes you, but the article still remains and the people who follow you will see and read the article. It is discouraging for people to open other links...

Hi Dan! I'm happy you're at least linking the articles from Medium on Steemit and like that keeping this community updated on your doings. I bet a lot of steemians are potential members of the EOS community, once they've discovered its great benefits.

You may also enjoy reading my latest article about EOS.io: The EOS Euphoria

Best, Marly -

Oooohh boy this is a tricky one.... In some ways I see where they are coming from... I just always get cautious when you have something like this... How does the management work... What if someone interferes with my profile, how do you decide whats gets revealed and what doesn't... What if someone wants to live off grid, if this was a system everyone would be tied together... I think that a benefit with money is that it ISNT recorded.. In some ways yeah it will add more safety, and it tries to add a level playing field between both parties... hmmmmmmmm idk, its tricky cause I do agree that certainly in the U.S a lot of institutions are just outdated and slow... How would this work with government, would institutions use this when say working with legal contracts like with property??? Or would this be purely just an OPTIONAL database that the seller and buyer could use to get information on the property? I definitely know that our own government makes doing these transactions tricky, because there is one center for the information so both parties must be willing to hunt around and sleuth for info, a system like this would definitely alleviate stress, and hassle... The main fear I think I have is what must we give in return... Obviously this database will need people to gather all this information, and how will they obtain this current information? Some records will have to be purchased from government institutions, it seems complex... complex systems usually have more areas for flaw... Idk... People smarter than I an will have to weight the pros and cons, and further discuss the implications of something like this.... but my fearful monkey brain makes me cautious of things like this..

Why are you posting on medium?
That's so disappointing.

But back to the topic, I'm not surprised that Vitalik is afraid of Ethereum becoming obsolete.

Dan I love what you are doing and I think your are cool. Even though I don't know you and I am a teenager I think of you as a very big entrepreneurial influence on me. I love eos and will probably buy some but thanks Dan for everything you have done.

Image result for eos ethereum killer

There's so much brainpower going into Ethereum research from academic institutions, companies and the Ethereum Foundation, I don't think any team with few months of tinkering can come up with something vastly better.

They can create dreams and hype, though. But at one point those dreams have to be put into reality.

Do you disagree? Ignore. Reading the second link now. Didn’t realize that you had authored it.

I think on the utilization of cryptography in blockchain in the form of SHA256 for Bitcoin, Dagger-Hashimoto algorithm for Ethereum and Scrypt for Litecoin posed a huge challenge to regulatory attempts.
The current surveillance program, such as those run by the NSA or sharing programs such as the 5-eyes are not able to break current cryptography methods as they are sufficiently robust given computing power available today.
This meant that blockchain frameworks cannot be stopped. It can be outlawed but is not completely enforceable by agents of the country at a low cost.

This is wonderful!!!! 2 genius competing, the true free market! The truly superior yechbology will win!

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And the more fair out of the two will win the hearts of the minnows :D

I'm eagerly waiting for the ethereum killer launch date ! And ethereum is already starts dying!😂😂😂😂

I'd say banning nearly has the opposite effect of what is intended in most cases. If a government really wants to kill something, they keep it legal, but then regulate and tax it to death.

That is probably my greatest concern about cryptocurrencies. With widespread adoption comes greater interest by governmental bodies to control it and bend it to their will.

Rule by force is the disease, who and how are symptoms.

Keep working, stop paying,....

Well said Dan.

The only way to maintain the integrity of a community is for the community to have control over its own composition.

Even though this is relative claim, but time will show us.

post.JPG

Congratulation

Today 2 years ago you joined SteemIt
Thank you, for making SteemIt great and Steem on for more years to come!

(You are being celebrated here)

Absolutely interesting read @dan! The assumption that AI will solve known issues sounds rather like a playful academic speculation from Vitalik to me. And although DPOS is certainly superior to POW, i don't see how it can be anything other than a system of LESS inequality. I find the concept of a blockchain constitution intriguing, but if that can be changed entirely, even there whales could again get all the say, i wonder if an immutable preamble would be the solution to that. Otherwise it'd look as the only balancing factor would be actually off-chain. Given a plurality of competing blockchains, the most corrupt ones, would be outcompeted by the more efficient ones.

Thanks for sharing @dan!

"The more effective a group is at maintaining its integrity as it grows, the larger the group will grow. The more corrupt a group is the faster it will die."

I don't believe in this. Reality proves otherwise. Look at the group who controls the planet for centuries. They are corrupt beyond imagination.

Coin holder voting, both for administration of specialized highlights, and for more broad utilize cases like choosing who runs validator hubs and who gets cash from improvement abundance stores, is sadly proceeding to be well known, thus it appears to be beneficial for me to compose another post clarifying why I (and Vlad Zamfir and others) don't think of it as shrewd for Ethereum (or extremely, any base-layer blockchain) to begin embracing these sorts of components in a firmly coupled shape in any noteworthy way.

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word spinned copy/paste from the link ...

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Man, they take so much effort to spin the original comment, I wonder why not just write an actual comment instead.

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sadly it's very easy to spin the words, it's just copy/paste and the use of one program et voila it's finished. They don't read the posting they just copy/paste ...
And the really sad part is that they earn more with this kind of abuse than most users here.

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I legit thought those were their own comments. Thanks for the heads-up!

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yeah if there are so many comments it's hard to say if it's a copy or not. At the moment there are so many copy/paste abuser... I am hoping for a bot that can distinguish them. @booster seems to have the ability so we will see

The best way to keep up the uprightness of a group is for the group to have control over its own piece.

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and again copy/paste comment stolen from travellingwomen and run through a word spinner...

I trust Vitalik. I've gone thru some of the EOS stuff, videos, reddit, presentations, and it doesn't feel right to me. When I started seriously researching ethereum 2 years ago, I was very impressed by the number and caliber of technical people that were passionate about the project. I don't get that feeling from EOS.

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and the next copy/paste abuser, just stop it and leave steem ...
And for your interest, you are reported to steemcleaners and by that I mean all of your spam accounts